GSE/Airwaves Ducati Withdraw from BSB

[749_MON]

As expected, it looks like the end for Airwaves Ducati, with no world plans and an impasse with the rulemakers in BSB regarding pistons in the 1098.

A real shame and sorry to Leon & Greg for being faithful to the team, only to be left hanging.

I believe this is also the issue which appears to have killed off JHP's hopes of moving the Buildbase bikes up next year.

I hope Dorna know what they're doing here, considering not only this, but also Rea & Kiyo's departure. Unless Haslam & Lavilla find alternative employment within the BSB paddock, next year could see four out of the top six riders not competing!

BSB: <B>GSE withdrawal triggers rider frenzy</B>.

[Gilps]

Originally Posted by 749_MON

As expected, it looks like the end for Airwaves Ducati, with no world plans and an impasse with the rulemakers in BSB regarding pistons in the 1098.

A real shame and sorry to Leon & Greg for being faithful to the team, only to be left hanging.

I believe this is also the issue which appears to have killed off JHP's hopes of moving the Buildbase bikes up next year.

I hope Dorna know what they're doing here, considering not only this, but also Rea & Kiyo's departure. Unless Haslam & Lavilla find alternative employment within the BSB paddock, next year could see four out of the top six riders not competing!

BSB: <B>GSE withdrawal triggers rider frenzy</B>.

I'm surpirsed at this. I thought the WSB regs applied to BSB in the same way. I didn't realise they were different, and had just assumed that Ducati would be running the 1098R in BSB next year. That's bad news I think.

[749_MON]

It would appear not. Ironically, the capacity limit was raised to 1200cc for V-twins well in advance of the changes to WSBK, but as I understand it, on the world stage, minor mods can be made to the engine, so long as you retain the stock crank.

I'm assuming that the excuse will be on the grounds of cost, which is something they are looking at. Not only is there going to be a one-tyre brand rule next year, but they were certainly investigating having single-branded control fuel also.

[banditloon]

Hopefully Dorna will not have their contract renewed to run (or do I mean ruin) BSB.

Sorry to see the loss of the Airwaves team for next year and also Ducati from BSB (at the moment!).

[RodH]

I agree that it's a shame that it looks like we won't have Ducati or GSE in BSB next year, I'm sure the series will be worse for it.

However, 749_MON, banditloon, I think you have your facts slightly confused. Dorna purely promote the series, rather badly some might say, but they have NO input or control over the technical regs. The series organisers MCRCB (Motorcycle Circuit Racing Control Board) are the ones that set the regs.

[legs748]

It will be a shame but the BSB rules were announced before the WSB ones, and are based on taking a bike out of a dealer and turning it into a race bike. Ducati Corse have always specially hand built factory bikes from special performance parts, such as last years F06, there were only 8 in the world, 4 for airwaves and 4 for Xerox. For Stuart Higgs (BSB boss) this goes against the spirit of a production based class. When he agreed to the 1200cc rule he also announced limitations to what could be done to engine internals. On the aspect of pistons Ducati Corse want to use a racing piston with fewer rings "as a safety measure" but Higgs has suggested to Ducati that should they be able to provide any engineering evidence that this is required for safety, and not just a performance/reliability mod he would look into a rule alteration but Ducati have declined to do this.
It does seem that given an inch, Ducati want, if not a mile then another 6 inches. The series will be all the poorer for not having the Ducatis on the grid and WSB could turn into another Ducati benefit if they have won a more favourable set of rules, is it coinsidence that a top bloke in FGSport was last year head of Ducati Corse? You have to wonder. WSB is an Italian owned championship, that was long dominated by an Italian manufacturer, that announced a one make tyre rule on Italian tyres (without tendering this contract to other tyre companies.) that were unable to compete with the product from Michelin, Dunlop and Bridgestone. As you can see the synical can find plenty of ammunition if they look hard enough.

[Gizmo]

Originally Posted by legs748

n but Ducati have declined to do this.
It does seem that given an inch, Ducati want, if not a mile then another 6 inches.

Yup, they do seem to want it all their own way. Higgs made it quite clear right from the start that if they were allowed in there would be limits and he's got no option but to stick to them.

IMHO the whole 1200cc project is going to backfire badly, they may win races but anyone watching will think its the capacity advantage not the bike. if Bayliss can win races on a 999 which has had no development for over 12 months you have to ask whether it is justified as their argument they needed bigger capacity was to improve reliability and now they introduce the 1200R and need to modify it to improve reliability.

[RodH]

Originally Posted by Gizmo

if Bayliss can win races on a 999 which has had no development for over 12 months you have to ask whether it is justified as their argument they needed bigger capacity was to improve reliability and now they introduce the 1200R and need to modify it to improve reliability.

Actually you are missing the fact that one of the main reasons that Ducati have said that they want a larger engine was that the 999 needed to be tuned to the eyeballs to be competitive and that makes it a) mega expensive and b) goes away from the original ethos of a production based class, which don't forget the 999 isn't a part of any more as it's not a current model.

Also don't forget that we had a situation several years ago when the Japs were whinging that they should be allowed to race 1000cc bikes. This was also in part driven by the fact that nobody really made 750 sports bikes any more, apart from Suzuki. Funny, but I don't seem to remember Ducati objecting to that rule change the same way as everyone is bleating about this one.

[nogaromill999]

The request from Ducati to reduce the number of rings on the 1098 is all to do with piston speed. The 1098R pistons being the huge lumps they are, need to be travelling at 26m/sec to produce competitive levels of power...and even the R6 WSS bikes have piston speeds of 21m/sec.......and the rings will simply not last at that speed.....

[RodH]

Originally Posted by nogaromill999

The request from Ducati to reduce the number of rings on the 1098 is all to do with piston speed. The 1098R pistons being the huge lumps they are, need to be travelling at 26m/sec to produce competitive levels of power...and even the R6 WSS bikes have piston speeds of 21m/sec.......and the rings will simply not last at that speed.....

I've read that heat is a factor to this need to reduce the number of rings from 3 to 2. I'm probably being thick here nogaro, but in your explanation, how do the rings last any better when there are only 2, compared to if there were 3. I'm not saying your are wrong.......I simply don't understand.

[nogaromill999]

Because the three rings create excessive friction causing excessive heat, the heat causes the rings which I am led to believe are thinner, to fracture in the bore.......

[RodH]

Originally Posted by nogaromill999

Because the three rings create excessive friction causing excessive heat, the heat causes the rings which I am led to believe are thinner, to fracture in the bore.......

Ah.....OK, now I understand....thank you.

[Gizmo]

Originally Posted by RodH

Actually you are missing the fact that one of the main reasons that Ducati have said that they want a larger engine was that the 999 needed to be tuned to the eyeballs to be competitive and that makes it a) mega expensive and b) goes away from the original ethos of a production based class, which don't forget the 999 isn't a part of any more as it's not a current model.

Sorry maybe not clear enough but tthats exactly the point i was trying to make the 1098 was meant to need less tuning and make it cheaper for privateer riders to race, so they bring out a 1098 then you have to tune it, surely the R version should be specc'ed correctly for racing and not require tuning beyond the rules?

AIUI there is no requirement to race a current model hence we still see FO5 and 06 bikes in WSB.

If Ducati can't make a v twin competitive within the rules then they need to look at the products they make, if it requires a V4 then so be it, the DD16RR should be entered instead.

[RodH]

Originally Posted by Gizmo

Sorry maybe not clear enough but tthats exactly the point i was trying to make the 1098 was meant to need less tuning and make it cheaper for privateer riders to race, so they bring out a 1098 then you have to tune it, surely the R version should be specc'ed correctly for racing and not require tuning beyond the rules?

AIUI there is no requirement to race a current model hence we still see FO5 and 06 bikes in WSB.

If Ducati can't make a v twin competitive within the rules then they need to look at the products they make, if it requires a V4 then so be it, the DD16RR should be entered instead.

But that's just it, the piston thing is not about tuning. The way I understand it, which may well be wrong, is that the 1098R requires 3 ring pistons to meet emission requirements as a road bike. These are no good for racing, for the reasons that nogaro has just explained.

[nogaromill999]

Absolutely correct Rod.