A question about handling/grip.

[rouge brute]

I've asked this to loads of people in the past and no-ones ever really answered it so I'll give it a go here...

When talking about car's handling we tend to talk about how the car performs mid corner, be it in a slide or how it breaks away. I've always tended to have RWD cars and it's really interesting to notice how they behave differently at the point the rear goes and how easy (or not in some cases) it is to hold the slide.

Now on a bike, the only times I've spun the rear up I've either utterly crapped myself or come off This seems to be true of most riders and it's rare to see someone backing into corners in a Xaus like fashion.

So how do we all judge tyre grip then? I'm currently having some supercorsa SPs fitted to mine and was wondering how the increased levels of grip will manifest themselves.

So, I'm really interested to hear your thoughts on how you judge your tyre grip because I'm pretty sure I can't feel when it's at the limit....

[Ghost]

RWD vehicle can be controlled fairly easily by a reasonable driver, on the MIRA wet grip I can keep one going lap after lap.

I used to practice also on a roundabout by the railway station on Coventry's ring road, when it was damp with rear wheel drive cars. That was many years ago when RWD was the norm.

But your question, its really about survival reactions, you can't fall off a car. If it goes Tit5 up you go 360 degs, no harm done, usually.

But on a bike if it comes round towards the 70 deg most will have lost it and bike and rider go in different (sometimes) directions.

A speedway rider can throw it down as he wants and needs to, but would he have a similar reaction if he was on the road and it slid when not expecting it.

I think it takes an experienced brave person to keep the throttle open when one feels that back end go.

The general concensus is that the throttle will get you out of more trouble than the brakes will, but getting that ingrained in the grey matter, is yours and my task.

[rouge brute]

Ghost

What I really mean is that as we don't explore the limits of grip in the same way as we do in cars.....how do we judge varying levels of grip of different bikes/tyres?

[JLTownshend]

It's called feel.

Some tyres are better than others at letting you know what they're doing and what they're about to do...

[rouge brute]

That's the thing though - I've been riding for years and the times that the grip has gone, I'd not been aware it was about to. Maybe I have no feelings....it's been said before!

[Grib_]

The few times I've found the limit of grip have been doing something stupid and too rough with the bike. Somebody smoother could have gone quicker and not had the tyre move. The times I've properly overstepped it, I've ended up on my arse It is hard to judge on a bike. Most people that think the tyre is moving are probably just experiencing the suspension moving and mis-reading it. Only riders at very high levels in racing can really use all of a tyres grip and know when there's no more, in my opinion anyway. Personally, I just got for a tyre I like the feel of. The ones that have had me off have always been ones that I get no feedback from.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by rouge brute

Ghost

What I really mean is that as we don't explore the limits of grip in the same way as we do in cars.....how do we judge varying levels of grip of different bikes/tyres?

I know what you mean, I'd have a go in a drifting comp without a worry in a car, but I don't have the confidence level to do it on a bike, as we don't bounce to well these days.

I just like to watch the maestros in action its safer.

[Lucazade 749s]

Originally Posted by rouge brute

That's the thing though - I've been riding for years and the times that the grip has gone, I'd not been aware it was about to. Maybe I have no feelings....it's been said before!

That is a good Thread I to have no idea when at the limit. Do not know what bike should feel when tyre is letting go. That is why when it would start to let go I do not know if I would slam brake (front or rear) let go of throttle, accelerate or do nothing no clue.
Lets put the question easy terms. What are the signs that grip is about to let go (except obvious smell from your pants)? Many people here talk about how the tyre feels, what the hell does that mean? I do not know how or what it feels how do you know it is tyre not suspension or your brain talking?

BTW I did practice rear wheel spinning on my monster on sand. It is cool to take off like that and then if I could add a wheelie?!

[davyevo]

I think the main point is that in a car, especially RWD, when you "explore the limits" and go beyond them, all that happens is that we spin, while on a bike, going past the limit usually means a very expensive off, damage to your bike and maybe to yourself.
I used to own a TVR Cerbera, and did a load of track days, it was loads of fun to have it drifting at every corner, safe in the knowledge that if i didnt hold it all that would happen is a little spin, at worst a trip to the grass, theres no way that i would risk binning my bike even in the (comparative) safety of a track.

[Masher]

RWD drifts H/Brake turns full power slides, 4 wheel power slides in my rangie (do need a wet road though) all fun, soon as a wheel looses traction front or rear on the bike and a visit to the laundry basket is in order!
Had the back go coming out of a roundabout, stepped out about 6 inches, (felt like 4 feet), gripped and carried on, I had no time to react took me completely by surprise on a dry road, feckin cr@pped myself, took about 10 minutes for the heart rate to approach something like normal.
I probably don't push traction to its limits (apart from the unexpected example above) and I have no idea where the traction (rear wheel) limits are.

[Couchcommando]

On the road you should be nowhere near the limits of a sports touring tyre yet still be able to ride as fast as anyone else. On track a normal tyre or semi sports tyre is good enough to run at the front of the fast group but lots of us fit stickier tyres as we like and excess of grip as we just don't have the skills to judge how much grip there is. Even at the top end of club racing I doubt there is more than a handful of people who can make a bike slide, less so those that can control it once it's sliding. Personally I never have the rear sliding and can prob count the times it's happened accidentally on one hand. I'd like to know how you can judge the grip without exceeding it as that's not something I want to do.

[Boogle748]

Ha, you guys must be tanking on to be getting these tyres to the limit! I've only just started riding and am jitterish as a horse around the corners so I know I wouldn't be anywhere near the limit but just in case this ever happens, how would one act, I know we all probably couldn't react in time but what's the preferred reaction of the pro's?

BTW, does everyone have to read threads from bottom to top? Is that an option I can change somewhere?

Boog's

[Grib_]

The best way to get comfortable with a bike 'moving around' under you is to do some off road riding. You have no choice but to ride round with no grip and with the front and back tyres constantly letting go. It doesn't translate as being able to slide a bike on tarmac (not to mere mortals anyway), but if the tyre does lose traction for whatever reason, you've programmed yourself not to panic and do the wrong thing. On the dirt, you're generally taught to gas it if it's all going wrong, which goes against all your instincts!

It certainly helped my confidence on a bike in the wet and if, for whatever reason, it has a little step out, it's not the end of the world. I've still managed to highside a bike in the dry and low side one in the wet....there's no helping some people though

[Masher]

You wont have time to think about it, you will just react, and hope you instinctively do the right thing, chances are if you loose grip you won't have time to do anything, if (as in my case) it sorts itself out you'll just have the issue of getting your heart rate down, If it doesn't well you may need help picking the bike up!!!

[AndyH]

Car and bikes are so different, i used to race a Chevette HSR 2.6 dry sump in rally cross and road and off road rallying stages, the differencies in feedback and feel are like no other, i now stick to a proper race car (Ultima GTR) for my track fun (unless on 2 wheels of course).

The *feel* everyone talks about is that finite moment when the bike is telling you its very close to throwing you an entirely different way to where you want to go or be. A race bike and rider who often spends so much time on that limit will know that area of tyre as they spend a lot of time on it, we as road / track day riders dont very often get there (everyone talks about chicken strips an i can tell you, that aint even close)
In my very limited experience of proper track riding is that time on the edge is so small, its nano seconds of feel that something is just soooo right, then into OH MY GOOODDD IM GONNA DIE the fronts gone, the backs catching the front up WTF is going on....and here comes the high side, all in a matter of less than a second.

Some tyres manage to make that contact patch area feel larger and thus enable you to feel that much sooner and lasts longer without chucking you into the grass or gravel (or worse).
A lot of beginners (and many pro's) change tyre pressures to aid this feel by dropping the PSI by 2-3 pounds front and rear. That changes the feel charicteristics and enables you to get a better understanding of what it should be like....gradually advancing onto more sporty tyres and pressures, but by doing so you make that area of feel smaller and smaller, but it is still there if you know what to look (feel) for.

Me, i have low sided, high sided, endo'd , spun, tucked under and all sorts in search of that *constant feel*, have i found it? have i crappooo like on the odd occasion for 2 or 3 laps, maybe close. I think my survival instincts take over too quick, im just too old now to get it right all the time, my bones ache and it takes me weeks to recover from the slightest off now....so i just pootle about not even trying to go there anymore, its just too darn painfull and expensive.