California Superbike School (Silverstone): 20 Apr 08 - Page 4

**Steve GD** · 03 Jan 08, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andyb

What do i know,

im just a class 1 car driver and a class 1 motorcyclist......................

Don't understand this post, Andy...it is like I've come in halfway through the film and missed something important...

Edited...

Ignore the above....found what I missed....

**zimbo** · 03 Jan 08, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andyb

What do i know,

im just a class 1 car driver and a class 1 motorcyclist......................

I'm sure you know plenty Andy, but I'm allowed to disagree, aren't I???

Paivi would certainly benefit from 1 - 1 instruction on the road, I only didn't agree that track based tuition was useless in her case!

**singletrack** · 03 Jan 08, 09:57 AM

andyb - I have had 1:1 road training with rapidtraining, and whilst it was very good for observation etc it did not really cover the basic machine control and mechanics etc that I needed. I am not a "natural rider" and, like a lot of ladies, I have to really concentrate to learn motorcycle techniques. I learnt more in a day with CSS trained instructors at Two Wheeled Confidence training (slow speed off road training) than I did with a day 1:1 tuition with rapid training. The 1:1 training covered the observation etc but did not give me any detailed info on counter-steering, body positioning, where to brake etc. The TCT traing covered all these things and I was able to practise them on the road afterwards. I am hoping CSS will cover them again and allow me to use them at a faster speed. safely!
I think it depends on the person being trained. I imagine Paivi is like me - pretty good at observation, hazard perception, even reading the road, but does not have the confidence to try to ride fast on a road where things are more likely to go wrong. I want to find the limits of my bike and myself away from traffic in controlled conditions. We are not all class 1 motorcycle riders and have not all been riding for years. Some of us need to gain confidence in our machines and cornering techniques before we can put them to good use on the road.
As far as I am aware, CSS does not just allow you to follow the person in front, but it slowly introduces different techniques to help you improve cornering. That is exactly what I need.

This is a thread to allow people who are interested in doing a Superbike School to join others with a similar interests - not just a place to tell everyone they are wrong and you are right. Let's all make our own choices - and don't assume everyone has the same needs or abilities!

What do I know? I'm only a nervous bike rider who has tried one system and is now trying another?

**nogaromill999** · 03 Jan 08, 10:12 AM

Well, I havent been on any of these courses, but I do think they all have a place in teaching people to ride quickly and safely, as well as how to handle the bike properly. I was very lucky that I had a Dad who was into bikes, a Grandad that was into bikes, somewhere to ride my own Tiger Cub off road from the age of 9, so though they didnt have names for all the things they do these days, I learned rear wheel steering, sliding, counter steering and falling off, all on soft grassy fields ( no helmets or armour in those days ) and it took me YEARS......so if you can learn it now in a few sessions, I'm all for it, whether its CSS or Police pursuit 1:1 tuition.......

**andyb** · 03 Jan 08, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paivi

The problem is that I do have a lot new to learn. I've never taken any lessons, and while I'm OK on straight, even bendy roads, when it comes to twisties, I really am not enjoying it at all.

Basically, I hate corners. I really do. Coming home last night, I felt like stopping and calling a breakdown van to get me back to London, anything to avoid having to face another bend. I felt sorry for Zimbo having to keep stopping to wait for me, as I was crawling along at 20mph. I've got to learn how to take corners safely, or I might as well sell my bike.

Hi Paivi, what is it you hate please, i want to help?

**final_edition** · 03 Jan 08, 12:09 PM

I agree with Andy, the correct obs and prior preperation for the bends, ie setting your self up and looking far enough ahead to ride the bike for the conditions that you see.

If you look far enough ahead you will have time to react and not "panick brake" when you are faced with a bend that just "comes at you"

**Gilps** · 03 Jan 08, 01:18 PM

The reason any of us brake at a certain point, roll off the throttle, stand a bike up mid corner, tun at a certain point is down to survival reactions. Our brain says "you are going to die, hit the brakes" or "you are not going to make this corner, you will die, better to stand the bike up and brake in a straight line than try to go round the bend". We all have survival reactions. It is that fear of pain which stops us getting hurt. What CSS does is through a tried and tested set of progressive steps they build your confidence. When the brain realises that after repeatedly going round the same corner at a certain speed without getting hurt, it resets its fear levels. It is fear of the unknown that stops us taking risks. Some people are bigger risk takers than others, and therefore learn a bit quicker, but also sometimes crash too.
The first time out for me on track at Snetterton I was quite slow. Then I followed a guy into a corner, convinced I would crash, but I came out the other side in one piece. Job done. My brain then allowed me to corner at that speed again for the next few laps. Then I crashed at the same corner. My mistake, not concetrating. And that was me knackered. No matter what I tried after that my brain would just not allow me to atack the corner again. I ended up going slower round it than before.
If you can train the brain then your riding will improve.
I read somewhere about the huge amount of work done off-track with Lewis Hamilton. Somoneone firgured out that there were only a certain amount of scenarios that a racer had to dela with, something like 16. From starting at the front, mid field, and at the back, to overtaking on-line, off-line, braking late etc. So what they did is worked out with him what he would do in any of those given situations. Time was spent on simulators dealing with each situation. So then when those situations arose he no longer had to think what to do, it was already instinctive.
I have done 1 day woith the police on the bike safe course. My road riding improved enormously. I get from A to B in the same amount of time but I am safer whilst doing it and actually enjoy road riding more because of it. However, it doesn't teach you how to take a corner, only the right position to be in on the road.
There is a place for both schools. They both teach different things.

**Jolley** · 03 Jan 08, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilps

We all have survival reactions. It is that fear of pain which stops us getting hurt. What CSS does is through a tried and tested set of progressive steps they build your confidence. When the brain realises that after repeatedly going round the same corner at a certain speed without getting hurt, it resets its fear levels. It is fear of the unknown that stops us taking risks. Some people are bigger risk takers than others, and therefore learn a bit quicker, but also sometimes crash too.

I have done 1 day woith the police on the bike safe course. My road riding improved enormously. I get from A to B in the same amount of time but I am safer whilst doing it and actually enjoy road riding more because of it. However, it doesn't teach you how to take a corner, only the right position to be in on the road.

There is a place for both schools. They both teach different things.

You saved me writing it!

**singletrack** · 03 Jan 08, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilps

The reason any of us brake at a certain point, roll off the throttle, stand a bike up mid corner, tun at a certain point is down to survival reactions. Our brain says "you are going to die, hit the brakes" or "you are not going to make this corner, you will die, better to stand the bike up and brake in a straight line than try to go round the bend". We all have survival reactions. It is that fear of pain which stops us getting hurt. What CSS does is through a tried and tested set of progressive steps they build your confidence. When the brain realises that after repeatedly going round the same corner at a certain speed without getting hurt, it resets its fear levels. It is fear of the unknown that stops us taking risks. Some people are bigger risk takers than others, and therefore learn a bit quicker, but also sometimes crash too.
The first time out for me on track at Snetterton I was quite slow. Then I followed a guy into a corner, convinced I would crash, but I came out the other side in one piece. Job done. My brain then allowed me to corner at that speed again for the next few laps. Then I crashed at the same corner. My mistake, not concetrating. And that was me knackered. No matter what I tried after that my brain would just not allow me to atack the corner again. I ended up going slower round it than before.
If you can train the brain then your riding will improve.
I read somewhere about the huge amount of work done off-track with Lewis Hamilton. Somoneone firgured out that there were only a certain amount of scenarios that a racer had to dela with, something like 16. From starting at the front, mid field, and at the back, to overtaking on-line, off-line, braking late etc. So what they did is worked out with him what he would do in any of those given situations. Time was spent on simulators dealing with each situation. So then when those situations arose he no longer had to think what to do, it was already instinctive.
I have done 1 day woith the police on the bike safe course. My road riding improved enormously. I get from A to B in the same amount of time but I am safer whilst doing it and actually enjoy road riding more because of it. However, it doesn't teach you how to take a corner, only the right position to be in on the road.
There is a place for both schools. They both teach different things.

Very eloquently put, Paul.

**Paivi** · 03 Jan 08, 09:26 PM

Blimey, look what I started!

FWIW, my roadriding has been deemed competent (indeed, A+ was mentioned), confident and courteous by both BikeSafe and IAM observers. However, I must have just got lucky with the corners...

Both observers made the same comment: my positioning, observation and hazard perception is spot on, and they couldn't understand why I'd think I'm going to crash going into every single corner, bearing in mind that my positioning, speed and gear was correct almost every single bloody corner! It's all in the mind...

Nine years of physics at school makes countersteering perfectly logical and understandable, and I have, indeed, used this for years, both subconsciously and consciously, so that's not my problem. My problem is two-fold: (a) I think I'm going to crash and enter each corner nervously, prepared to break (thinking that surely it's better to crash at zero speed than go into a hedge at 40mph) and (b) I know that if I make a mistake, I won't know how to fix it, as I've never been taught this, nor have I ever had the chance to practice any recovery techniques. My daily commute is in heavily congested city conditions, where corners tend to have diesel, potholes, manhole covers and/or traffic lights. As well as 20 other bikes all vying for the same line. My only 'practice' time would be the sunny and dry weekends, but alas, the country roads are again, heavily congested and in even poorer repair than the London ones.

That's why I'm doing the CSS, it's being billed as a cornering course, and that's the practice I need to gain. The safest way to find my limits and those of the bike, and how to recover from a near-off has got to be a track, not the roads anywhere, but certainly not in the South East.

**sweetpea** · 03 Jan 08, 11:06 PM

Paivi

Only just found this and read through all the posts...

I too hate corners at the national meet last year the corners I did the the better I felt about them but I still did not enjoy them, Rug will confirm as he was riding behind me and saw me shaking my head everytime I took a sharp corner. In fact I ENJOYED(!!) the M1 home after having to ride on such roads.

I want to do anything it takes to make me a safer rider and therefore helps me to enjoy it more so I am looking forward to our trip to Italy. I think I will want to do the CSS training AND then some type of 1to1 training.

Suze

**nogaromill999** · 03 Jan 08, 11:07 PM

And THEN a trackday........Lol!

**frenaugo** · 04 Jan 08, 08:37 PM

The California superbike school is awesome, after level 1, I did level 2 and 3 twice and level 4 once, all here in the Uk.

Andy Ibbott and his staff Superbike School :: Staff are masters in communication, they can put across in one day what it would take a lifetime to figure out on your own.

To express how valuable I feel their training is, I would support making that sort of training compulsory for all new bike riders and my children, if they want to ride a bike will have to do at least level 1 first.

The only problem I have found with the school, is that a lot of people perceive it as a track/racing training which is far removed to what it actually is. I found it to be a revelation as to how corners and their dynamics can be simply understood. They use the safe track environment only for the training and one thing it is definitely not, is a track day. The day is very disciplined and everyone from novice to expert will enjoy it and learn lots from it.

P.S. btw I am not sponsored by them, I just think they are GGGGGGRRREEEEEEAT __________________

**Rob998** · 04 Jan 08, 11:28 PM

Mr Code is available to answer questions from time to time on ducati.ms, there's a sticky thread in the Ducati Chat forum called "Ask Keith Code" He was online tonight. In fact I asked him about schools in the UK, before I thought to check here

And I have a similar problem to Paivi. I don't hate corners, but I am very nervous about them. I am going to try & attend a level 1, if I can get the necessary £350 + expenses together!

**andyb** · 05 Jan 08, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frenaugo

The California superbike school is awesome, after level 1, I did level 2 and 3 twice and level 4 once, all here in the Uk.

Andy Ibbott and his staff Superbike School :: Staff are masters in communication, they can put across in one day what it would take a lifetime to figure out on your own.

To express how valuable I feel their training is, I would support making that sort of training compulsory for all new bike riders and my children, if they want to ride a bike will have to do at least level 1 first.

The only problem I have found with the school, is that a lot of people perceive it as a track/racing training which is far removed to what it actually is. I found it to be a revelation as to how corners and their dynamics can be simply understood. They use the safe track environment only for the training and one thing it is definitely not, is a track day. The day is very disciplined and everyone from novice to expert will enjoy it and learn lots from it.

P.S. btw I am not sponsored by them, I just think they are GGGGGGRRREEEEEEAT __________________

My point is that on a wide one way track the shape you make through a corner includes the word apex........on the road it doesnt.