Steve Plater masterclass..I'm not worthy

[Fireman]

Originally Posted by TP#12

So did he tell you to stop pushing your weight through the inside peg at any set point in the corner? Once you're in the corner if you keep pushing it you are effectively pushing the bike underneath you and applying more forces through your contact patch with the road, as if it doesn't already have enough to deal with. You can overload it causing it to break traction which means you on your bum.
I'm only saying this because I get concerned about riders being given the wrong information and then trying to apply it because it can lead to a crash.

Gosh..are you a track instructor type?? You lost me!

As I said all SP said was once the bike was tipped in and you were looking through your line to the next corner, you should have no pressure through your arms to the bars. He said: "All they are there for is to connect your hands to the controls." So what you say about hands off follows that theory and he used the word relax. You could interpret that as stop all inputs now you mention it - this would include full weight on the peg. Once you are in a corner you are anchored on the bike by your outside knee/leg/thigh. I have seen GP riders take their inside foot off the peg mid corner, so that would follow.

It is intersting what you say about the CSS. SP said that they are one school of thought, but he felt that their teachings were not the only way. I suppose once you get to the very top level it is what works for you.

On the point of overloading the front contact patch...could that happen as well if too much counter steer input is put in as you tip the bike in. I.e. the front just tucks in?

As far as applying these techniques on road. I have tried since - the day it didn't rain!!
It didn't work on the road, where as counter steering does, but on the road I don't carry anything like the speed into corners as I do on the track and most road corners are far more open so require less agressive inputs. Roundabouts excepted. But most of them are deisel death traps that need respect. Call me a sissy but I think the skill in fast road riding is a different beast to what you do on the racetrack. Similar principles but adapted to suit circumstances and conditions.

[TP#12]

Originally Posted by Fireman

Gosh..are you a track instructor type?? You lost me!

I was a CSS Coach

Originally Posted by Fireman

As I said all SP said was once the bike was tipped in and you were looking through your line to the next corner, you should have no pressure through your arms to the bars. He said: "All they are there for is to connect your hands to the controls." So what you say about hands off follows that theory and he used the word relax. You could interpret that as stop all inputs now you mention it - this would include full weight on the peg. Once you are in a corner you are anchored on the bike by your outside knee/leg/thigh. I have seen GP riders take their inside foot off the peg mid corner, so that would follow.

It is intersting what you say about the CSS. SP said that they are one school of thought, but he felt that their teachings were not the only way. I suppose once you get to the very top level it is what works for you.

I agree to an extent, the CSS is one way of thinking. What the ultimate goal is though, is understanding how various inputs and controls from you affect the bike. Such as where your weight is positioned, if you do this that happens etc. Then it's simply science although individuals have their own interpretation of that just as scientists are known to disagree on things.

Relaxing is very important, that and where I'm looking are the two things I'm always thinking about when I'm racing. Although I sometimes remember to do it and find myself still quite tense so I give myself a little talking to in my helmet

Originally Posted by Fireman

On the point of overloading the front contact patch...could that happen as well if too much counter steer input is put in as you tip the bike in. I.e. the front just tucks in?

Not just from steering input, no. But you can if you're still holding a lot of front brake at that point. For example there's a chicane that leads onto the start finish straight at Assen. I was racing there on the weekend. It's a right hander entry and left hander exit. To make the transition from knee on the ground in the right to knee on the ground in the left very quickly, so you can carry more speed through there, I was very agressively counter steering. So pulling the outside bar towards me as well as pushing the inside bar and doing it quite forcefully. This was causing the front tyre to skip in the air! The first time it's every happened to me and I nearly crapped myself the first time I did it. This isn't just a function of my aggressive counter steering though, the setup of my forks played a part. I don't try and steer at all with my feet, even on the track when I'm racing. I can turn the bike very quickly just using counter steering. I do weight the outside peg once in the corner though, but that's nothing to do with steering the bike.

I'm nowhere near as fast as Steve Plater let me add!

Originally Posted by Fireman

As far as applying these techniques on road. I have tried since - the day it didn't rain!!
It didn't work on the road, where as counter steering does, but on the road I don't carry anything like the speed into corners as I do on the track and most road corners are far more open so require less agressive inputs. Roundabouts excepted. But most of them are deisel death traps that need respect. Call me a sissy but I think the skill in fast road riding is a different beast to what you do on the racetrack. Similar principles but adapted to suit circumstances and conditions.

The only difference to steering inputs between road and track is the pace/force at which you do them. You're generally going faster on the track or you want the bike to turn quicker so you use more force. Obviously the faster the bike is going the more gyroscopic effect there is that you need to overcome with the steering necessitating more force. Does that make sense?

When the bike is at walking pace the gyroscopic force is negligible which is why you can steer the bike around, not counter steer.

[Fireman]

TP12

Please could you go through step by step what you do coming into a tight turn following a fast straight on the track...We can assume shut the throttle and brake...?

I have booked a whole day of one to one instruction at Donnington in July. The trouble with instruction, I found this when I learnt to fly, fire a steam locomotive and now ride a bike quickly around a race track, that every teacher tells it differently. It's not like learning to do a quadratic equation because there is skill involved, which involved personal interpretation.

[TP#12]

Originally Posted by Fireman

TP12

Please could you go through step by step what you do coming into a tight turn following a fast straight on the track...We can assume shut the throttle and brake...?

I have booked a whole day of one to one instruction at Donnington in July. The trouble with instruction, I found this when I learnt to fly, fire a steam locomotive and now ride a bike quickly around a race track, that every teacher tells it differently. It's not like learning to do a quadratic equation because there is skill involved, which involved personal interpretation.

There's a lot more to it than that but to be honest I feel a little uncomfortable giving the whole process out, because otherwise why would people go to the CSS if they had an ex-CSS coach handing out all that info for free. I still enjoy a good relationship with them and I'd like to keep it that way! I've added the comments I have so far because I felt that if some of the information in this thread was left unqualified it could lead to someone getting hurt.

I've given a fair bit of information here which you can start to build on and I'd encourage you to think about how your inputs affect the bike.

I'm instructing at the DSC track days at Cadwell in two weeks but again I won't be handing out everything the CSS teach because that would be unprofessional of me. I can still offer value though.

Sorry I can't be more help. If I could I would, trust me, that's where I gain my enjoyment out of coaching.

[Fireman]

TP12

That's fair enough. I can respect your position. Personally I wouldn't do CSS. To get the full story costs around £1050...or is it 4 levels at £350..? Plus travelling and B&B etc.

I'm sure it is value for money ultimately as it is a structured, consistant syllabus; but beyond my means. Like most skills I have mastered, it is a case of using your intelligence to pick out the best bits of what you are told or shown. Then work on it until you find what works best.

Thanks for your CSSesque input. I will factor this into my next learning experience.

The one thing I cannot get my head round is moving out of my comfort zone. I suppose this will come with enhanced skills, but a nice cheap - not an 02 748R - track bike would help as throwing it into the kitty litter would not be such a worry.

You could always PM me..They would never know. And I won't tell :-)

[TP#12]

Originally Posted by Fireman

TP12

That's fair enough. I can respect your position. Personally I wouldn't do CSS. To get the full story costs around £1050...or is it 4 levels at £350..? Plus travelling and B&B etc.

I'm sure it is value for money ultimately as it is a structured, consistant syllabus; but beyond my means. Like most skills I have mastered, it is a case of using your intelligence to pick out the best bits of what you are told or shown. Then work on it until you find what works best.

Thanks for your CSSesque input. I will factor this into my next learning experience.

The one thing I cannot get my head round is moving out of my comfort zone. I suppose this will come with enhanced skills, but a nice cheap - not an 02 748R - track bike would help as throwing it into the kitty litter would not be such a worry.

You could always PM me..They would never know. And I won't tell :-)

Ha, I won't but I can't blame you for trying!

The idea is not to move out of your comfort zone but to inrease your comfort zone so you can go faster within it. People will still push their boundaries, me included, but if you can increase your pace and still feel comfortable there is less risk. The limiting factor in the human and bike equation is the human's brain. Think about what inputs provide the brain with the information it uses to make decisions, and the answer to increasing your comfort zone lies there

[NedLudd]

Excellent thread gents.

Originally Posted by Fireman

Steve did not mention weighting the outside peg...someone else did in this thread.

Yup, that was me. I thought that needed exploring since otherwise people might just keep booting on the inside peg and encourage the rear to step out.

Originally Posted by TP#12

Once you're in the corner if you keep pushing it you are effectively pushing the bike underneath you and applying more forces through your contact patch with the road, as if it doesn't already have enough to deal with. You can overload it causing it to break traction which means you on your bum.

I.e. that.

[Rob998]

This is a great thread, very interesting stuff being discussed. It reminds me of Keith Codes "Soft Science of Roadracing Motorcycles" (must dig that out & read it again) so I'm not surprised to find out that TP#12 is a former CSS coach.

TP#12, Ducati.ms have an occasional Q&A thead set up with Keith, if you're still well in with them, do you think he'd be interested in doing something similar on here?

[TP#12]

Originally Posted by Rob998

This is a great thread, very interesting stuff being discussed. It reminds me of Keith Codes "Soft Science of Roadracing Motorcycles" (must dig that out & read it again) so I'm not surprised to find out that TP#12 is a former CSS coach.

TP#12, Ducati.ms have an occasional Q&A thead set up with Keith, if you're still well in with them, do you think he'd be interested in doing something similar on here?

I've never met Keith so I'm not sure about that. I know the staff here in the UK don't really have the time to do more than they are doing.

If you're interested in pursuing it you could email johnny@superbikeschool.co.uk and see what he has to say? Johnny Haynes is the Chief Riding Coach in the EMEA region and a top bloke. I don't really have time to get involved in that sort of thing and as I'm not a coach anymore I couldn't represent the school's teachings.

It's a very good idea though and something worth a chat with Johnny at least.

[Rob998]

I'll drop him an email and suggest it. It would be really cool if we could get something similar set up here.

[TP#12]

Nice one Rob, good luck with it

[Rob998]

I'll just run it past Dan first, just to make sure he's OK with it.

[MarkG]

A couple points to consider in the foot weighting question; look at dirt track racing, the riders always have their outside foot weighted going through the turn, same with ski racing, a skier ALWAYS has the outside foot weighted. If they didn't they would fall. In fact dirt racers use their outside foot and thigh on the bike, same as most top roadracers. Weighting inside might be ok for initiating a turn. I was out this morning, and to test this I could stand on one peg with only very minor turn in forces felt.

The other reason for outside weighting is that the bike can be straightened up sooner coming out of the turn while the weight is still kept inboard.

I'm not the world's expert at this by any means, but these are some observations made over many years riding and also skiing.

I concur with the post that implied that weighting the inside foot is introducing a load conducive to a low side. I mean, look at head on shots of guys hanging off in a corner, the foot is on the end of the peg almost coming off the end. This does not look like weighting the peg to me.

My $.02. YOMV

[funkyrimpler]

surely steering is a mix of all the above mentioned inputs? perhaps different percentages for different bikes/riders. More advanced riders would use all of the inputs but a beginner perhaps only the most fundamental (counter steering..?) From my track experience and training (doing the Cadwell course in July btw) i was taught and have learnt as follows: virtually no weight should be carried by the arms-the torso supports your weight and the knees, particularly under braking!-on the entry to a corner gently roll off the gas-this makes the bike turn naturally and gently loads the front, slide your bum across to the inside of the bike with just about one cheek on the seat-by weighting the inside peg, grip the tank with the outside leg. The harder you grip with the outside and/or weight the inside peg, the faster she will drop. Counter steering can initiate the turn and/or stabilise lean angle adding maintenance throttle also does this and holds the line. Upper body leans to the inside with head craned around the turn looking where you want to go and leading the bike..more gas, she straightens, weight on the pegs to slide back across the seat and simultaneously counter steer and youre away...I think most of us use this combination to a greater or lesser degree..
Off throttle-slid and weight inside bike as counter steering-grip outside tank-move shoulders inside the bike leading with the head-maintenance throttle to maintain angle and grip...
Is this what most riders do?

[TP#12]

Originally Posted by funkyrimpler

surely steering is a mix of all the above mentioned inputs? perhaps different percentages for different bikes/riders. More advanced riders would use all of the inputs but a beginner perhaps only the most fundamental (counter steering..?) From my track experience and training (doing the Cadwell course in July btw) i was taught and have learnt as follows: virtually no weight should be carried by the arms-the torso supports your weight and the knees, particularly under braking!-on the entry to a corner gently roll off the gas-this makes the bike turn naturally and gently loads the front, slide your bum across to the inside of the bike with just about one cheek on the seat-by weighting the inside peg, grip the tank with the outside leg. The harder you grip with the outside and/or weight the inside peg, the faster she will drop. Counter steering can initiate the turn and/or stabilise lean angle adding maintenance throttle also does this and holds the line. Upper body leans to the inside with head craned around the turn looking where you want to go and leading the bike..more gas, she straightens, weight on the pegs to slide back across the seat and simultaneously counter steer and youre away...I think most of us use this combination to a greater or lesser degree..
Off throttle-slid and weight inside bike as counter steering-grip outside tank-move shoulders inside the bike leading with the head-maintenance throttle to maintain angle and grip...
Is this what most riders do?

That's not what I do. You say on the entry to a corner you roll off the gas and this makes the bike turn naturally? Is that what you meant?